thanks vidushi/antara- this is an old problem for me: i can't make every line 'non stock', it diminishes the point of the 'non stock'- i need to learn how to use cliches better because i occasionally do want to use cliches ( in the sense we can enjoy hindi film music even if its full of cliches, lyrical & musical)-but i need to use them in a way that makes it evident enough that i'm aware of its cliche-ness & chose it perhaps for that-. esp in this poem which tries to rebut a cliche using simple, traditional (& thus perhaps cliched) images- plants, sun, water. but thanks very much for your comment, this is an ongoing conversation!-
i get your point. some reasons why one uses stock or cliches- one - to express the inadequacy of language, two- if, as you said, deliberate use to draw attention to the cliche, three- as irony. in hindi songs and urdu rhetoric- it works because because in the former it comes woven with the pattern of a familiar melodic structure, in urdu poetry/shayeri- it comes as part of the poetic rhetoric that raises an expectation of clichedness but surprises with 'wit' . In English it is difficult to execute because of the essentially unmelodramatic nature of the english rhetoric unless its used as irony. A plain use of cliche often doesnt work. Lets talk more.
thanks again. just a few quick points: today, for me at least one cannot read hindi songs, urdu rhetoric purely in terms internal to their tradition, it seems to me to be self admittedly a lit over the top, self satiric, campy etc. this is part of the problem of reading across languages,cultures-the confusion can be productive & shouldn't simply return to the camps of 'unmelodramatic english' or 'helplessly shayari urdu'! i think there are similar ways to stockpile cliches in english that aren't reducible to 'irony' either (the centrality of irony in english being a slightly old american critical formulation)-a friend of mine writes in forests of cliches, & its overwhelming & mostly funny-but thanks again-
This is me- antara
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ReplyDelete" water of your tears"- too stock. do something else with the last line.
ReplyDeletethanks vidushi/antara- this is an old problem for me: i can't make every line 'non stock', it diminishes the point of the 'non stock'- i need to learn how to use cliches better because i occasionally do want to use cliches ( in the sense we can enjoy hindi film music even if its full of cliches, lyrical & musical)-but i need to use them in a way that makes it evident enough that i'm aware of its cliche-ness & chose it perhaps for that-. esp in this poem which tries to rebut a cliche using simple, traditional (& thus perhaps cliched) images- plants, sun, water. but thanks very much for your comment, this is an ongoing conversation!-
ReplyDeletei get your point. some reasons why one uses stock or cliches- one - to express the inadequacy of language, two- if, as you said, deliberate use to draw attention to the cliche, three- as irony. in hindi songs and urdu rhetoric- it works because because in the former it comes woven with the pattern of a familiar melodic structure, in urdu poetry/shayeri- it comes as part of the poetic rhetoric that raises an expectation of clichedness but surprises with 'wit' . In English it is difficult to execute because of the essentially unmelodramatic nature of the english rhetoric unless its used as irony. A plain use of cliche often doesnt work. Lets talk more.
ReplyDeletethanks again. just a few quick points: today, for me at least one cannot read hindi songs, urdu rhetoric purely in terms internal to their tradition, it seems to me to be self admittedly a lit over the top, self satiric, campy etc. this is part of the problem of reading across languages,cultures-the confusion can be productive & shouldn't simply return to the camps of 'unmelodramatic english' or 'helplessly shayari urdu'! i think there are similar ways to stockpile cliches in english that aren't reducible to 'irony' either (the centrality of irony in english being a slightly old american critical formulation)-a friend of mine writes in forests of cliches, & its overwhelming & mostly funny-but thanks again-
ReplyDeleteDebatable. But thanks for the conversation. March on!
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